Awkard Stuff: Race, Women, Writers, Editors
[Roxane Gay / August 27th, 2009 / Random Meandering Thoughts ]It’s important to have awkward conversations unless you’re on a date. When that happens, its just sad for everyone involved.
I am consistently frustrated, frightened, and freaked out by the lack of people of color in the publishing world in 2009(!), and particularly in independent publishing. Whenever you see pictures from readings, there are rarely any black or brown faces in the crowd or on stage. AWP was… hugely depressing in this regard. I don’t think I saw a single person of color in our room sitting behind a table. As for attendees, people of color were there in small pockets, but we were underrepresented. Most contributors to magazines are white. Most editors are white. White white white with the token minorities thrown in for the occasional flare. And when you try to talk about this, everyone points to the one or two people of color they know or they tell you to lighten up. Me, I just look in the mirror. Quota, filled! It troubles me. It should trouble all of us. It is 2009 and we have a Black president and a Latina Supreme Court justice and we still have no consistent, successful way of fostering diversity in literary magazines (and I include PANK as part of the problem). How are we all okay with this state of affairs?
I also find that the indie publishing world is very much a boy’s club. I know there are many women writers but when The Rumpus has to issue a specific call for women humor writers and small presses are eagerly seeking manuscripts from women, you have to wonder what’s going on. When you look at a great many of the chapbooks being published, they’re written by men. That’s not a bad thing. This isn’t about seeing less work or editorial participation from men, but rather seeing more participation from women. Is it that men are better at self-promotion and more willing to put themselves out there? I find that sometimes male editors evaluate work with a double standard as if certain edgier styles of writing are acceptable from men but not from women. And on and on it goes. Now, I’ll be honest. Most of the time, I’m too busy being black to worry about being a woman. And I myself am really lucky to find great homes for my writing and work for a very inclusive editor who is in fact the only man on the PANK staff. This isn’t so much about something I feel personally but rather something I feel more universally. And I know everyone’s first instinct will be to list the women editors and writers and the editors and writers of color they know and that is sort of the point. As long as you can still come up with a list, we’re underrepresented.
I have no profound point here. I thought I’d open up a discussion about this stuff. Is it just me or are these valid concerns? How do we start to address race and gender and inclusion in more effective ways without pandering to political correction?
Holla if you hear me!
hey roxane, disorganized thoughts here:
when i started Wigleaf, or before I started it, I was seeing what you’re seeing in indie writing. probably a little over half the people I solicited b4 the start-up were writers of color…. that was more or less conscious. they were writers I loved but they were also writers of color, and if I was going to intro the mag on myspace — this was b4 myspace died — i wanted people who looked at the friend pix to see more than, you know, white boys.
in terms of image, and in terms of voices, i think i positioned Wigleaf as well as i could have. if i still don’t get tons of subs from writers of color, i think it must have to do w/ the broader culture of indie writing itself. i really don’t have an answer for this, but something about it must be forbidding to some writers of color . Maybe it has to do w/ writing– fiction and poetry — being so, like, ‘personal’ for people… You’ve really got to trust in the mags, in a sense……
i’m thinking now about Shatera Davenport, who published a great short in the last Lamination Colony –”Catfish.” in her bio-line, it says she wrote it when she was an eighth grader in Detroit public schools……
Why doesn’t this happen more? Stuff like this getting into Lam Col and others?
at the same time, it’s interesting: the bit about her being in eighth grade when she wrote it: it’s a distancing mechanism, isn’t it? it’s protective……
Hi Scott, thanks for your thoughts. I think you’re on to something when you talk about trust and the personal nature of writing. I wish I knew what it was.
Very interesting, almost sad about the LC writer distancing herself. I wonder why that is.
First, I don’t believe that the quality of literature is very often influenced by the color of the hands writing it.
Second, you’re not posing a solution to the problem you’re inventing. Problems generally have a negative impact on something’s output (for instance, the copyists of Tao Lin or the proliferation of me-me-me attitudes or the various in-crowds and their degradation of community spirit).
Third, I think that black people will eventually take more part in the indie literature scene, as well as poor people. I could easily re-write your article and proclaim the lack of working-class men. Did you ever notice that the majority of the HTMLGiant crowd are in one or another way economically privileged?
So, call me a radical, but I think it boils down to economics. The reason there aren’t more blacks in the scene is the same reason there aren’t more people like me: education is harder to come by for these two (and more) groups. College isn’t a guarantee in West Baltimore, and the people who argue about “affirmative action making it easier for minorities to get into etc etc schools” haven’t lived the reality of that situation. Nor have these same people lived the reality of buying food with food stamps or things like that. As our culture moves toward a more educated and civilized one in the century to come, more people of every stripe will be writing and reading off the grid, and since whites remain the majority of our society, they’ll still be the majority in literature as well as every other art form, so I guess that begs the question of whether or not there really is a feasible solution to this “problem.”
PHM
PH, I appreciate your response and you’ve given me a lot to think about but I am not inventing a problem. Let’s just get that out of the way.
I don’t say anything about the quality of literature based upon who’s writing it. I absolutely agree with what you say about that. I am simply talking about wanting to see more diversity in the writers creating the literature we publish. You’re absolutely right about working-class men also being underrepresented. The same can be said for queer writers. (I don’t have enough time today to begin to address the level of privilege at HTML Giant but yes I’ve noticed.) We’re naturally incline to advocate for those communities we’re a part of. Still, I hope moving forward that I am more mindful of difference beyond race and gender.
And yes, these are undoubtedly, in part, issues of economics and access, but it is short-sighted to assume that a. writers of color all come from poverty and don’t have access and that b. it requires a college education to write well. I know there are communities of writers of color out there. I’m not suggesting there’s a lack of a pipeline. I’m saying the indie publishing pipeline isn’t connecting to that pipeline and there are imbalances in terms of what we see in terms of gender, and even if we don’t come up with solutions it might be interesting to talk about it.
No, in fact this is what you were saying: “I have no profound point here. I thought I’d open up a discussion about this stuff. Is it just me or are these valid concerns?”
I didn’t say it requires a college education. I’m sure I’m not the only one here without one. The point is that education leads to reading more leads to wanting something different to read leads to reading indie lit. Or everyone can operate in a vacuum, I suppose, but that’s generally not how it happens.
I don’t think they’re valid concerns. I don’t think I’m going to go out and say “seeking writers of all colors and genders, especially black women” or anything like that. And I don’t think anyone else will, either. I think if you want more color in the submissions pool, you should probably find out where these black communities of writers are and connect with them, say, “Look, there’s all of this, too, so give it a shot.” Pank is as good as any other magazine to be a conduit to the rest of the scene. When you reject black writers (how can you tell?) you can suggest other magazines for them to submit their work to.
When I submit, I cannot recall a single instance where the guidelines required a photo. It was only after acceptance that a photo may/may not have been requested.
So how, pray tell, do the editors know the color of the contributor prior to acceptance? I get rejections all the time. Hurtful, yes, but more so because I though more highly of my work than the editor. Never once have I thought I was rejected for my gender. I have thought that maybe I felt too highly of myself and then begun to doubt my abilities as a writer. I guess as a white woman I am not ‘wired’ to think that way.
And BTW! Obama isn’t BLACK…he is black & white, as is Halle Berry. My daughter’s father is a black man. Her genetic code is a wonderous mix of the both of us. I will be damned if I am going to allow the black community to negate my role simply by the color of our skin, especially since I have sole custody and he has been a void in her life since birth. I am also NOT teaching her to think that way. When people ask, ignorantly, ‘what is she?’ the pat response is ‘A little girl. Why do you ask?’
Maybe once ALL sides become willing to step away from the crutch of color, gender, size & whatever else we will take the reigns of individual ability and make ourselves useful, thought provoking and inspiring products of society. No one is holding back another any longer…it is merely individual initiative at this point….rally the troops, start your own e-zine, volunteer at inner-city schools and promote the merits of art & literature, inspire the youth to find their voice…yaddy, yaddy, yaddy.
I am sure this post will go over like a turd in a punch bowl, so have at it!
Jennifer, I appreciate your comment but you’re bringing a lot of personal issues and craziness to the table that have very little to do with this post. I don’t think you read a word I said and to say that people aren’t being held back and the reductionist attitude that suggests let’s not see race or gender or other difference is so misinformed as to be insulting. Race as a crutch? Insulting. And if you saw my family photos I’m pretty sure you’d eat most of these words, so don’t make assumptions.
It is indeed hard for editors to know who their contributors are, but at AWP for example, when we met many of our contributors, not one was a person of color. The writing community is also fairly small. You get to know people. I know from what I speak when I say there aren’t many writers of color (who do exist and do publish) in the independent publishing community.
Also, there’s nothing in this post that implies that work is being rejected on the basis of race or gender. When my writing is rejected, I know its because the work didn’t fit editorial tastes or it simply wasn’t good enough.
Your assumptions were way off base. I read your post, several times and this provides good impetus for the discussion – that of perception. What you said and how I perceived it…
“but you’re bringing a lot of personal issues and craziness to the table…”
And can you say beginning a discussion about a lack of representation of people of color in the indie publishing world isn’t a ‘personal issue’ for you? And I quote: “Most of the time, I’m too busy being black to worry about being a woman.”
I do believe your final posit was this:
“How do we start to address race and gender and inclusion in more effective ways without pandering to political correction?” – and I do believe my first two paragraphs asked, simply ‘how do the publishers know the color of the author’ which I felt was a valid point. If it is a blind review they wouldn’t know and if, hypothetically, only 1% of submissions were from black authors, wouldn’t it stand to reason that represented numbers would be much lower.
My final paragraph addressed a similar poist made by PHM…what are other black authors doing to help foster the pool of contributors into the indie lit field? Again, the law of averages and numbers…the power lies in the hands of those with information and access to it. I have learned more about available publication opportunities in the last 2 months than ever – via social networking.
I felt that my ‘craziness’ as you called it was valid in that why do we need to make the distinction at ALL! man, woman, black, white…to be truly inclusionary I feel we need to stop labeling. Why can’t I just be valued as a human being without the confining labels of white, woman, majority, smart, rich, poor, fat, thin, etc. By teaching my daughter that she does not have to choose between black or white it opens her up to a view of the ‘whole’ person, vis a vis, inclusionary thinking. Too bad you couldn’t see that point.
I think a big part of Roxane’s point is having a conversation about *why* only 1% (or whatever it actually is) of the submitters happen to be black. I don’t think it’s tipping the scales in any unfair way to say “hey, why are so few members of this group being represented, and how can we make this more inclusive?” No one is saying editors reject black writers on the basis of being black, or that they should accept them on the basis of being black. They’re saying, “why are so few black writers even showing up in the slush pile at all, and is there any way to change that, and as editors how can we be sure we’re doing all we can? etc.”
Stop making sense, Angi!
Angi, to see my response to your comment scroll down to Ben White’s toughts. I believe in the cliche ‘three strikes’ you are out rule so will not try to make my position any clearer. Ben does a much better job of doing so, anyway.
oh, you are SOOOO right! we need to talk! share experiences, etc. YES!
Meg, ha! Of course we should.
very well said.
i’ve been taking a hard look at myself as a publisher lately. of the books i’ve put out (not counting anthologies), only one has been by a woman and one by a person of color. this was the same author.
it’s brought up a lot of questions for me. am i a self-hating woman or something? i’ve always felt more comfortable operating in typically male spheres but i think i need to break out of that comfort zone. i think i have to be more conscious about that.
These sorts of conversations also make me think about my comfort zones and moving beyond them. I don’t think you’re a self-hating woman!
couple quick things (gotta get soemthing done today)
thinking about Jennifer’s post: no, you don’t always know how writers identify when they sub stuff. for instance, i didn’t know Roxane was Black when i accepted a story of hers earlier this year.
so yeah–you’re not accepting a writer, you’re accepting a story. Does this mean that editors are foolish to want writers of color to send stories to their mags? Well, i’m one of those editors…. I don’t think i’m foolish, at least in that way
here’s one way i think about it: for a long time –mainly for reasons P.H. was giving — writers, and so writing itself, was white and privileged. Which is probably to say that, at least to some degree, the values of white property holders manifested themselves in the aesthetic values of fiction, became mixed up w/ our whole sense of what we might think of as ‘good’…. So now, as editors, if we just sit back and say we’re going to wait for what’s ‘good’– there’s the possibility we’re being unintentionally exclusive……
this whole topic is really hard for fiction writers, i think. i mean, one of the first things you take in as an aspiring fiction writer is that stories are about individuals: each story is built around a single somebody dealing w/ something or other…… But it’s kind of dumb (my opinion) to look at culture that way. In our culture there are forces that operate on people according to where they live, what they earn, what color they are, how they talk….. Systemic forces, in other words. For sure individuals have agency, but i see too much willingness to dismiss consideration of what some people get hit w/ in this country according to how they’re classified….
Thanks for saying what I’m thinking, only far more coherently!
We always, always accept the story or poem or whatever.
“Which is probably to say that, at least to some degree, the values of white property holders manifested themselves in the aesthetic values of fiction, became mixed up w/ our whole sense of what we might think of as ‘good’…. So now, as editors, if we just sit back and say we’re going to wait for what’s ‘good’– there’s the possibility we’re being unintentionally exclusive……”
Mm hm… and I think one aspect of that is the idea writing should tap into a universal human experience, whereas some of us aren’t even certain whether we believe such a thing exists.
“In our culture there are forces that operate on people according to where they live, what they earn, what color they are, how they talk….. Systemic forces, in other words. For sure individuals have agency, but i see too much willingness to dismiss consideration of what some people get hit w/ in this country according to how they’re classified….”
And also, polemical political stories may be totally boring, but writing about how folks claim agency within systemically constrained circumstances is inherently fascinating, I believe.
I stand shoulder to shoulder with Jennifer Bower on this. At Drunken Boat, the quality of the literature is what matters. We look for the best writing out there. And we look far and wide for it, not just just waiting for it to come to us.
Does the author’s race matter? Yes. As does age, gender, religion, sexual orientation, country of residence, psychological health, weight, height, tastes in food, political affiliations, etc., etc. These are things that distinguish one person from another, and if written about with grace and verve, they’re of interest to us as editors and as readers.
Every time I read work for Drunken Boat, I think “What is this adding to my understanding of– or sense of mystery about– the world?” Every human being holds pieces of that understanding and that mystery. But it takes a good writer to communicate it.
Leslie McGrath
Hi Leslie. The writing is the only thing that matters at PANK too. Inclusion doesn’t come at the price of quality.
I’m not surprised to hear this. I admire PANK.
Keep doing what you do.
Lets get awkward:
In my opinion, black artists have style. Serious style. They typically find their artistic voice by inventing and redefining their genre. Maybe the problem is that the current state of the publishing community doesn’t appeal to black writers or foster their level of creativity.
I’d read a black-zine but sulk at the fact that I wouldn’t be able to submit.
“I’d read a black-zine but sulk at the fact that I wouldn’t be able to submit.” – which only fosters exclusionary thinking. If a publication claimed they only printed a white-zine the NAACP would be all over it
I’d say this is a valid point. Then again, there are plenty of websites which only publish white people (on purpose and with warlike ferocity)–they all just happen to be racist websites, and I don’t think the NAACP finds anything constitutionally wrong with them. At the same time, her point is strong.
All artists have style, to my mind, at least all great artists.
Maybe style was the wrong word. I’m talking more about defining and redefining genres. Take, for example, poetry slams which are usually predominately black. How would you be able to publish that? Its performance and poetry mixed together in a way that I’m not sure could be recreated in a typical form of publication.
Very interesting, Nate. We actually publish a lot of slam poets. One of the great things about publishing online is that it allows for the possibility of publishing texts in hybrid forms. I have to believe we would be very open to considering visual performances (in the form of videos) as texts.
A video-zine would be very cool.
I don’t have any brilliant insight to add, but I would love to see more racial diversity in the indie-lit world, and I have no idea what the “solutions” are. I don’t know how related this is, but I think often the separating of lit into categories like “African American Lit” and “Gay and Lesbian Lit” does a huge disservice. I understand (or hope) the intent is to showcase talent within particular segments of the population, but I think it can make people who are not a part of those groups feel like the point is that there is nothing of interest for them here, that these books are aimed only at people who have had a particular experience. Like if there was a “Women’s Lit” section, I don’t think many men would browse there expecting to find things they would enjoy. I just don’t understand this segregation of books. I know the point is to showcase and not to marginalize, but I feel like it has the opposite effect. Lit is the most powerful way I know of to get a glimpse inside someone else’s experience, and I think it’s really unfortunate if we start taking the approach that we are only supposed to want to read things written by someone the same race/gender/orientation/age/whatever as ourselves. I think it’s normal to seek out a reflection of ourselves to some extent, but it should be a healthy mix of that and seeking to broaden our perspectives, I think.
I’ve never felt like being a woman is a problem for me in this world, and there are a lot of women in the indie-lit world who I really admire. But I do think topically about the things I/we write. I know that I feel guilty of not often enough writing strong female characters. There’s an AWP panel that’s about the “challenges of writing female characters who reject the historical, social, and often institutional insistence upon passive, selfless, sacrificial women in modern fiction.” And I totally agree that still can be quite a challenge, but seeing it like that just makes me think, OMG, what year is this? WHY is that still even something we need to have a conversation about?
Angi, one of the most frustrating things to me, about bookstores, is the way everything is divided into Queer Fiction and Women’s Lit and Hispanic Fiction and Black Fiction and Asian Fiction. People would be more exposed to a wider range of writers if we just crammed everything together, at least in terms of fiction and poetry. Self-help books really should stay in their own corner.
I generally agree the specialized sections are highly problematic b.c of the ghetto effect, but I’ve also hear Tayari Jones talk lucidly about how the black section allowed her to find an audience she wouldn’t have found otherwise, and I’ve also heard stories about how the GLBT shelf has been a salvation for gay youth looking for something very specific and not knowing how else to find it… and beyond the bookstore, I certainly believe publications that call attention to the contributions of particular systematically marginalized groups remain valid and valuable. I tend to think some kind of both/and solution would be preferable, kind-of-like blog entries can be multiply tagged… but this is sort of difficult to impossible to do in literal physical space, unless your shelving multiple copies of the same book in multiple locations.
I enjoyed T. Jones’s thoughts on the black section when I read them a couple years back. My opinion on this changes all the time. Unfortunately, or maybe fortunately, there are no easy answers to any of this.
My impression would be that the source problem is, as you mentioned, that the pipeline isn’t connected. I also imagine, without specific evidence, that the community to draw from is literally smaller for racial minorities. I wouldn’t presume to venture whether the proportion of writers to non-writers is different between blacks or whites or any group. One of the problems of being in any minority group (racial, social, religious, whatever) is that as a minority, there are only so many members. Any subset of that already small group will be smaller. I’m a privileged white male, but I’m also Jewish–I can’t help but notice in which situations where my personal minority group is over or underrepresented.
Gender is a different issue, both in the numbers game and the fact that its usually straightforward to see the gender of a person reflected in the name. I have no role in the indie publishing community nor do I know any of the old boy’s club that I’m sure exists. My impression is that this problem is on the way out. I know that for what it’s worth (not much), your post made me curious, so I went through my stats for Nanoism, and accepted stories breakdown to 52 women and 36 men. I’m sure other sites fall on all ends of the spectrum.
It could be that inertia from a male-dominated world is the main culprit. It could be exacerbated by the added strain of motherhood for many women writers. It could be further hurt by the kinds of jobs men and women still tend to have and how those jobs lend themselves to the writing process. If you take a person, of any type, and ask them why don’t they write–I wonder what kind of answers you’d get and from whom they’d come.
Perfectly verbalized!
Thank you for bringing up motherhood, Ben. I wasn’t sure if I wanted to mention it for fear of sounding like I’m trying to earn points or something but it’s true. I have a young toddler (under two) that is on my lap or dragging me around the house most of the time. I have been trying to keep up with all the comments on this today but they are coming faster than I can keep up with for the most part. She is actually on my lap as I type this, and I’m pretty sure that she has memorized my passwords already.
It’s true though, many women may have the talent and inclination but it can be frustrating to balance a writing life with a mommy one. I can’t even count how times I’ve had to delete the gibberish she has smashed onto the screen during this post alone!
No that motherhood is the only reason that more women aren’t writing, or following other artistic passions, but I can see how it’s harder.
I could go on but this diaper is seriously done.
Teresa, I think any conversation about gender has to include some discussion of motherhood and how it impacts the freedom to write. I don’t have kids so I can’t speak to that but if you’d like to write a guest post about motherhood and writing, we would be thrilled to post it.
and I would be thrilled to write it.
Out of all the various “roles” I play, that of “mother” and “writer” are hands down the hardest two for me to balance. I don’t know if that’s true for everyone, but it’s been my experience. The only period in my entire life when I didn’t really write at all was the first few years after my daughter was born.
I hear ya T! As a single-parent I have to balance motherhood, working full time and writing, along with the myriad of other responsibilities. My daughter is not a toddler but a budding pre-teen so now we juggle Girl Scouts, piano lesson, church, sports, after-school clubs and anything else to offer her exposure to possibilities and opportunites and show her she has choices…
I think that in the early days when people thought I was a woman, I got more attention for that. I see women in every publication I read, and every publication I publish. Of the people I work with in my literary endeavors, one is male and the rest are women.
PH, I agree race is deeply intertwined with class, and this probably has something to do with accessing some of the more privileged spaces, esp. the sort of hipsterish, irony-soaked intellectual social space, of indie lit…
But I also think saying “It’s all about class” is a very standard way of derailing conversations about race. It’s not just about class, it’s about race too (and I’m not accusing you of this, necessarily, since I think you’re often someone who brings up class issues on a regular basis, which I really appreciate, but it is interesting that nobody in this country wants to talk about or acknowledge class unless they’re avoiding talking about racism).
…As someone who sometimes writes quite explicitly about race and racism in my fiction, after seeing your comments here, I would not be inclined to send any of those stories to Dispatch. Nor would I be inclined to send anything race-conscious to any of Blake Butler’s publications after the mini-storm that erupted over his Toni Morrison post a few months back. And I often think twice before sending editors stories with explicit Queer content because my perception is that some ironic indie hipster intellectual-types do not like it when you “make a big deal” about sexual orientation (which is not what I see myself as doing, Im not even sure I fully believe in the concept of sexual orientation, but its pervasiveness in our culture still shapes how I’m read). So I wonder whether this is another part of the diversity problem… the perception publications may not be receptive to certain kinds of content.
Excellent points, Tim and I absolutely agree that class is the go to retreat when we don’t want to look issues of race and/or gender in the eye.
I also agree about what you say about explicit queer content in your stories. A lot of the hipster attitude implies we’re beyond all this, just be what you are but don’t make a fuss about it where fuss is any sort of open acknowledgment of difference. But ultimately, yes I think many writers do perceive that editors might not be as receptive to certain kinds of writing and so they don’t even try to get in the game.
You guys can tell Carl Miller Daniels about my laid-back, hipster, persnickety attitude. He’ll be confused since I published some poems about him meeting male lovers in crop fields and such in the old rendition of dispatch. I publish anything that is good. I’m certainly not Blake Butler, find that comparison insulting, and think this part of the thread has become overtly personal.
Speaking only for myself, you’re conflating different comments from different people. There is no you guys. I speak for myself. Tim speaks for himself.
I totally agree with you, PH, you’re not at all that type (I’m leery of even talking about that type as if it truly exists, it’s certainly not a label anybody wants to claim, if anything it’s more of a pervasive idea), if anything, you have set yourself up as the anti-”hipster.” I think that comment maybe got muddled when you read it… I was working with two fully distinct examples of why I or somebody else (and in a way kind of wish I hadn’t, because it was never my intention to criticize individuals, I try really hard to keep conversations like this grounded in systems and patterns, not persons) might not expect a pub to be fertile ground for writing abt race.
i’m w/ you 99% on this, T. the one % has to do w/BB. i’m not familiar w/ the Toni M thing so maybe i shouldn’t talk, but if we’re thinking about aesthetics here — and i am, or was trying to earlier — BB is one of the good guys. His mags fuck w/ and sometimes blow apart staid (and, as I was saying earlier, white-coded) notions of literary quality.
of course he’s also the Man at htmlg, which some people have been talking about here…..
what do you think about all this, htmlg?
I don’t want to bash Blake, or PH, or any other individuals. I want to make sure I nip that in the bud right away before it goes any further. I felt I needed examples to keep my comment from being too esoteric and abstract and jargony, but the htmlgiant thing was probably a bad call, b/c I don’t want to dredge back up that conversation.
I agree Blake has made some radical contributions to lit.
I totally understand why you’re using the word “good guy,” but I’d also like to avoid talking abt it in those terms.
i hear ya man….. we always end up saying things too hastily in these things (like ‘good guys’)……. that’s why i always avoid them if i can help it…..
but a worthwhile subject…. hard to resist….
Now wait a damn minute.
You and Roxanne Gay are being highly divisive right now. People like you are the number one barrier between whites and blacks living side by side in the ghetto. Just less educated, less privileged versions of you were exactly the ones who asked me “what I was looking for” every night on my way home from work where I was the only white skin for blocks and blocks. I’m not avoiding talking about race. It’s funny that I started in Maine where there are almost no minorities and eventually made my home in Baltimore where whites are the minority.
You’re saying that I’m not allowed to have been under-privileged because I’m not a minority.
My name is spelled with one n. I’m not being divisive. You’re being defensive. There is a difference. I understand the chip on your shoulder but no one here is denying your lack of privilege. The reality is that most everyone in the US holds some kind of privilege. You may be working class but you’re white and that’s a privilege. I may be black but I’m economically comfortable and that’s a huge privilege. And discussing certain disparities (race, gender, sexuality, whatever) doesn’t negate your experience. Why do you act like it does? I’m definitely not implying that.
There it is.
It’s not okay to talk about class because that’s not a card in your deck. You appreciate anyone’s comments who disagrees with you, but have made it clear multiple times that you were not here to change your mind about anything.
Right, sorry about that.
Are you even reading anything I’m saying? I personally can’t speak well to issues of class but I’ve said several times in this thread that I’m very interested in learning more about those issues, thinking more about those issues. There’s no discussion unwelcome here. I think you’re trying to create disagreement where this is none.
Hey PH,
Did you miss this part of my comment:
“I think you’re often someone who brings up class issues on a regular basis, which I really appreciate”
Your honesty abt class issues and your calling people out on class privilege is one of the things I really like about you.
All I said was race and class are both distinct and interrelated.
It is awkward stuff, Roxane. Thank you for getting such a spirited discussion going. I’m a White woman writer. America’s been very good to me, but I was born and raised working class in Ireland. In my own way, I know what it’s like to feel on the outside of things, to have the “I” frightened out of me. What’s most heartening for me about this discussion is the call for more inclusion in writing and publishing, regardless of race, gender, class, or sexual orientation. How can we begin to make that happen? Could something as simple and visual as PANK and other literary magazines using more diverse photos and images in their magazines help?
Ethel that’s a great question. I truly don’t know but it is something to think about. I think sharing author photos is one way to get at demonstrating diversity but one I would personally avoid because as a writer, I hate ( I’m ridiculously shy) being asked for my picture. And yes, I’d say you definitely know difference, as a woman with a working class background, as a mother, as an immigrant. Diversity is much more than race and gender and I’m aware of that but should have made it clearer in my original post.
…Im also thinking… there’s a really developed conversation about this issue in the sci-fi/fantasy community (google the “Angry Black Woman” blog, or L Timmel Duchamp’s Aqueduct Press, or “racefail”)…. I’m wondering whether we should start brainstorming more systematic and sustained ways of raising these issues in the indie lit community.
Tim, I have been fascinated by the race conversation in the SFF, Spec Fic community because I have a lot of friends who are part of that community. The way that community has advanced that conversation through some really awkward difficult moments is amazing. The writers of color participating are being patient and gracious in ways I cannot.
interesting conversation & yes, a necessary one. here is all i feel qualified to add to this:
one of the most important parts of any conversation is the open listening portion. just because you can’t see the exclusion in your particular corner of the writing universe, does not mean it doesn’t exist.
if you are white you cannot truly empathize with how a brown person experiences the world, straight people cannot fully empathize with how queer people experience the world & men cannot fully empathize with how women experience the world.
while all of our worlds may look the same, the way the world looks at us is often as different as night and day.
the best we can hope for is understanding & the only way to get that is to listen without negating the existence of things just because they don’t happen to us or within our limited range of vision. understanding is the first step toward any change.
I do not read this post as a political rant, an accusation or an indictment and am somewhat surprised that it might be viewed as such. In fact, Roxane states outright that “[t]his is not something I feel personally, but rather something I feel more universally.” She concludes with an invitation for discussion. This is clearly not a dissertation defense; it’s a thoughtful posting examining her own experience and asking for input based on the experience of others. Nobody has been disinvited from the conversation.
There are a few points I’d like to address as a participant in this discussion, which is not to point fingers or argue with personal observations, but to get some clarification on interesting, but perhaps confusing statements.
One commenter points out that Roxane presented a problem but no solution. Sometimes there are no solutions. I find it honest not to propose answers where none exist or where none sufficiently address such massive issues. Laws regarding integration, affirmative action and civil rights protections remain essential for a reason: There are those who seek to set aside equitable treatment for all based on arguments regarding special treatment and the like.
This relates to a solution proposed by another commenter who calls for abandonment of those “crutches” of ethnicity, gender, etc., and for taking personal responsibility and action based on the fact that “no one is holding back another anymore.” Don’t get me wrong. I truly wish that no one was holding anyone else back and that such actions could be enough to dissolve the institutionally-ingrained discrimination and exclusion that historically have been utilized in fighting against those protections to which I referred above. I also wonder if eliminating recognition of those so-called crutches that contribute so much to human identity may eliminate rich exploration in writing about personal experience in those contexts.
Further, the point about color-blindness, etc., has been made innumerable times in the context of affirmative action. Yet it presumes we’re all starting from the same point, that everyone knows about and has access to those suggested initiatives and that everyone feels welcome or comfortable enough to jump into the literary world in such a conspicuous manner.
Finally, I am very interested in the argument regarding lack of education being an impediment to participation in the publishing world. I won’t name names, but I have not been witness to a dearth of writers who did not attend college or grad school. There are plenty of educated people who can’t write and plenty of uneducated who can. I know several high school dropouts who write beautifully and plenty of MFA-holders who don’t. Scott’s reference to the writer who wrote a fine piece while in eighth grade also makes me wonder about the validity of this point. Again, this is fodder for discussion, not judgment. I’d love to see further exploration of this line of thought.
[Footnote/ Postscript? It should be noted that President Obama self-identifies as black, which I believe is his right.]
I agree with you about crutches/color-blindness/etc. get really tired of hearing the whole “color-blindness” thing. It’s a lovely Utopian thought, but as long as we live in a world where there is racism, where whiteness is still a source of privilege, we can’t just say we’re living in a post-racial world. It would be fantastic to live in a world where these conversations weren’t necessary, but they *are* still necessary. Pretending that all is equal won’t make it true.
“color-blindness” has to be taught…and it is hard work.
Lauren,
It bears noting how I myself came to the indie lit scene. Through Poets & Writers. I saw an ad for FRiGG Magazine, read a piece by Heather Fleming (she was sexy, her writing was vaguely erotic and highly engaging–I was sixteen years old), and became hooked. I got in touch with Heather Fleming through AOL Instant Messenger. She introduced me to Zoetrope Virtual Studio, and the rest is history. That’s a pretty rare circumstance, and I don’t think it would have happened for me any other way.
I think there are many more people who read their first lit mag in college. I think eventually, especially today, they check out online writing because of that. So this is why I think education/higher education is the more likely road to get here.
So I’m not saying that education gives you the natural creative spark and subsequent dedication it takes to write worth a fuck. Experience of course enriches that, and that’s why our best writers generally have a lot of it and the rest have the same story over again. What I am saying is that education encourages pleasure reading, and pleasure reading has a tendency to encourage pleasure writing.
I myself have always been interested in ways of getting people here without going through these usual channels. I’d like them to click a link on myspace out of the blue or hear it from their favorite singer or see a singer or see a sticker (check litareview.com on Sept. 1st) at their favorite bar.
Your comment was heartening, though, thanks for writing it.
For me this is THE key point: education. Few people without it, and without the leisure time to make use of it in a “liberal artsy” kind of way will every develop a deep appreciation for literature, and an awareness of what’s out there, in the same way the educated will. And this is why I think economic class (always an unpopular topic, I know) is just as important as gender or race in the discussion of who participates in literature today. Obviously, this impacts race and gender enormously. I think it’s a huge problem, although there are some great exceptions (Junot Diaz, for example) and it creates an awfully diluted, boring kind of literature. Lit by white, wealthy easterners.
It’s such a turnoff for me that I actually decided not to do an MFA after seeing who the MFA students were in my school. No offense to Roxane and the many awesome writers from MFA programs, (and maybe it was just my school) but I just couldn’t do it. It made me feel so slimy. I went to work at a labor union instead, and boy, am I glad I did. I have a hundred million worker stories to tell.
But I wish they could tell their own stories more often. I wish there was a way that more poor and working class families could get their hands on literature and kids could get exposed from an early age. There are so many experiences there, and so few people that break out of the economic cycle of poverty to get educated and write about it.
Also–I think the gender thing is easily explained. It’s the lack of self-promotion sadly common to women, and I’m not exception. Do a little experiment some time: make a list of your favorite indie writers, male and female, and then check to see how many of them have blogs or websites. You’ll be absolutely amazed at the lopsidedness. And this is nothing against men–we women need to be more aggressive at promoting ourselves.
I don’t have an MFA…
Oh, sorry–I don’t know why I thought you did. Anyway, my point still stands–there are a ton of great writers with MFAs, so I don’t mean to say anything bad about them–just the lopsidedness of educational institutions, opportunities, and programs in general.
Indeed, it is lopsided. I am in a PhD program (not in creative writing) where I am the only black woman, certainly the only Haitian at a university where I am one of four black graduate students, across all disciplines.
I also agree with your comment about self-promotion. That is so very true.
” white, wealthy easterners”
I guess, categorically, I am one of those…but I write about subversive boys who fuck blowup dolls.
So you mean to say, you walked into an MFA program, scanned the room, saw nothing but ” white, wealthy easterners” and ASSUMED they didn’t have anything of merit to say? Well you haven’t met my family then. I guess incest, alcoholics, father’s who fake suicides because they have gone bankrupt, babies born with spinalbifida are valid enough.
My point here is that one should never compare their insides to outsides of someone else. We don’t know the lives of others’ unless we become willing to shed assumptions and stereotypes. Who knows what you might have learned from those people in that MFA; even if it was something about who you don’t want to be.
I agree w/ appreciate all of this comment, and your dedication to finding ways for folks to access the lit scene is the other thing I really like about you.
I haven’t really thought about race and gender in publishing much, to be honest. Now that you mention it, my workshop classes are almost 100% white and the vast majority of the people I encounter at readings are as well. I don’t know what the reasoning is here, beyond the fact that most Americans are white. But yes, the percentages in writing circles aren’t representative of the population.
I will say that I don’t really see the boy’s club thing quite as much. Since I came on board at MB, I’ve published 6 stories written by women and only 4 by men. And I’ve noticed in the Chicago scene a lot of women who are regular members of the lit community. At readings, it’s just about 50/50. My workshop classes are actually more likely to have women than men. But I’m sure that what I encounter isn’t the whole of the situation. I’ve noticed on my own bookshelves a huge lack of novels by female writers.
I don’t really know what to do in order to change things. I mean, I’ve always found the online lit community extremely open and welcoming. I don’t really see how we are doing anything to exclude any minority.
Jessa’s experience is why I think perhaps at least the gender disparity is on its way out. The workshops I’ve been involved in have been female-dominated. They’ve also been diverse (in every aspect I can think of). It is depressing–but important–to keep in mind that opportunities change constantly, and that even writers in their later 20’s may have had significantly different surroundings than budding writers in college right now. Some writers just write, but many need coaxing and a supportive environment (either in a university or not), and this is the aspect that–if I had to guess–is holding back a lot of people who would not have had a voice in years past. A lot of people, even writers, go through life without knowing the indie community even exists. The question is whether certain groups are more likely to be in-the-know in the first place.
When we see a disparity between groups (racial, sexual orientation, religious, etc), there are two obvious conclusions. The usual knee-jerk response in America has been that low representation means active predjudice–that is not Roxane’s point, and I think the vast majority of people would agree that is not the case. The other conclusion is low-representation is due to a lack of engagement. I think that is the case here, and the follow-up question is what can be done about it. On the indie lit side, to be honest, I think very little. The biggest thing publications can do is get the word out–not about themselves so much as about the idea of independent publishing. About the idea that people are writing and reading and it has nothing to do with the NYT Bestseller list or the new release section of Barnes of Noble. People don’t know, and those that do are often inclined to dismiss indie efforts (with varying degrees of accuracy) as either pseudo-intellectual tripe (like this comment) or of low quality (like the stuff on my hard drive).
If even writing-interested college-educated dime-a-dozen white men like myself could go years without realizing that accessible opportunities to read and write were out there, then certainly any smaller group (especially if forced to consider different priorities due to class) will also have trouble discovering the independent gold mine. The internet helps, but by itself, it can still be insular and ultimately insufficient.
“color-blindness” is something I’m working on instilling in my daughter. When I was growing up there were very few children of any other race in my school so the one black kid and the one Indian kid stood out. No one was cruel to them (way to be Canadian!) but they got stared at a fair bit. Now that can’t be comfortable for children.
Last week I was out with my family at a park and there was only one other mother their with her dark as night daughter. They are Indian. My daughter was very stand-offish with her and refused to play with her. My husband and I talked with the mother and played with the daughter while our girl stood further and further away. She’s been around many ‘other race’ children but this little girl has to be the darkest she’s seen yet. It really bothered me that my girl might have been turned off of playing with her based on her differences. But, she also could have been having a shy moment. Either way, teaching color-blindness is so important.
When we left the park we just talked about what a nice little girl she was and how we wished that our girl was nicer to her. Baby steps, right?
that was in reply to Jennifer Bower.
Teresa, I wanna hug you! That is why I love you girl. It is hard work and parents have forgotten that children learn by example, especially within the first five years. My daughter reads because first I read to her and know she sees me read, she exercises because she sees me doing it, etc…Baby steps, absolutely! And age appropriate conversations.
Baby T isn’t quite two so you are setting the stage.
We refrain from using stereotypical adjectives to describe people. We talk about culteral differences and how that affects peoples perceptions. I guess the key is we talk and I try to walk the talk. My dad used to always say, ‘if the student didn’t learn then the teacher didn’t teach.’ And I believe I am the ultimate teacher in my daughter’s life. Too many ‘appear’ to feel it is the responsiblity of others. Sadly.
[...] Some sort of discussion about race, gender, economic class in indie lit ongoing at Pank. [...]
My opinion on the matter is that its a systemic and systematic problem with the educational system where old stereotypes persists and are actually reinforced. Most students of color, from my experience, are pushed or only given a glimmer of hope if they look toward sports rather than the arts for careers. For women, they are pushed toward something ‘practical’ such as nursing, rather than the arts because it will pay the bills. Not my opinion but that’s how things are perceived and or rationalized.
I teach at two South Florida colleges–one college is private and culturally diverse, probably as a result of affirmative action. The other college is public and not diverse at all, which kind of reflects the self-imposed segregation of society into communities of color and non-color, since students usually attend the local community college in the community in which they live. For me the problem is the obsession with money, and doing something that will earn you lots of it. The arts and artists, unfortunately, are stereotyped as trivial, worthless and who wants to go into that field to find a better life, a better existence? It just doesn’t appeal to people as an option if they are spending money on college to ‘better’ themselves. Sad, sick and depressing reality.
I see the exact thing you’re talking about with “practicality” amongst my own classmates. I’m 28 and just now finishing up my undergrad degree in creative writing and philosophy, and it’s very, very uncommon for me to run into students my age who are getting similar “un-practical” degrees. Most who are going back later in life are going with an increase in income in mind, at least in my experience.
It’s a really difficult thing, though, to come from a fairly economically disadvantaged background (as I do) and go to college, and go into debt, for something that has no promise of income on the other side. For a lot of people from similar economic backgrounds, they are the first in their family to earn a degree, the first to dream of being more comfortable than their parents were. I think it’s one thing for those who have only known relative economic comfort to prioritize what they love over financial benefits, but for those who have grown up knowing what it is to really struggle financially, I think it’s difficult to not see moving up the financial ladder as a huge goal of education.
The argument about people from disadvantaged background going into fields that are lucrative instead of creative is certainly valid–however, this is a class rationale and not a race one. If class explains everything, then fine. But if there are other components then it falls a bit short.
Though I’ve heard it before, I don’t really buy that argument used for gender disparities. It could be my experience with women in the arts, but if, for example, you read the recent discussion in the NYTimes about teaching, the opposite might be true. Men, driven by the antiquated need to be breadwinners, go into lucrative jobs, whereas women maintain the ability to “marry rich” and thus free themselves to take less well-paying jobs like teaching. Sounds offensive, I know–this is not my argument, but one given seriously about the issues surrounding our educational system. It’s just another reason why some of the huge generalizations about gender dynamics can be awkward, offensive, but also potentially very wrong. Where the reality lies on that line for career choice would be interesting to know.
While I’ve personally known first-generation college goers and their need for financial success, I haven’t seen that same dynamic for women versus men. More importantly, you don’t need a BA in creative writing to write nor a job in publishing. While a writing community is (I think) an under-appreciated factor, I don’t think lamenting about our career choices or college majors really gets to the heart of the issue.
thank you for grounding the conversation in reality… I found this comment really informative, useful.
[...] read an intense blog by PANK about race and gender in the literary publication world — intense in that it [...]
my thought after reading this was, who cares. I don’t think its a valid concern. different cultures express themselves in the ways they are used to. to lament that ‘people of color’ aren’t engaging in this particular means of expressing themselves isn’t to say they aren’t in other ways, and why should they in this particular way? who cares what color the people are who are writing. Real racism issues exist in realms where there is much more at stake. This is just creating art, anyone can do it, and the art will speak for itself. art grows from within cultures, and sometiems it stays within cultures, and why is that bad.
why do writers think they are so important, or think that everyone in the world must also try to be a writer or be reading or be living the way they are. isn’t it nobler to be living in the world instead of just articulating it.
ditto what darby says.
The thing is, I’m not at all suggesting everyone should be writers…
that was hyperbole in my part, but what i think you are suggesting is that more ‘people of color’ ought to be writers. I’m asking, why? I mean as opposed to what they already enjoy doing in their spare time.
Not even remotely. I’m suggesting I’d like to find ways to connect more effectively to writers of color (and not just any one race) who are already out there writing but don’t seem to participate in the indie publishing community.
how do you know there exists writers of color who don’t participate?
I don’t think I can say anything you’re going to hear without going to an extreme or acting dismissive so I’ll just say thanks for participating in this discussion. You’ve made some interesting points and whether you believe it or not, you’ve given me things to think about.
whatever
maybe they are smarter to not try to get into the egomaniacal publishing game. I just don’t see what’s wrong with a lack of participation in an artistic realm, as long as expression exists in others, which it does.
okay, what you are suggesting then is that more writers of color ought to stop just writing and also walk around with other writers.
Darby: I am sincerely curious as to your reasons for commenting after proclaiming “who cares?” (re: the points set forth in the posting) and declaring the topic invalid.
This topic has generated a huge amount of interest and includes a number of contrary opinions. The discussion has, in general, retained a sense of courtesy and real consideration of those opinions.
I am compelled to say that your remarks come across as contemptuous, condescending and dismissive, and your ultimate statement, that Roxane is suggesting “that more writers of color ought to stop just writing and also walk around with other writers” is ridiculous (or what you might call hyperbolic) and disrespectful.
I am certainly not espousing censorship of comments; rather, I wonder about your motivation in making highly provocative arguments followed by insults and statements such as “whatever,” within the course of a conversation that I, and apparently many others here, indeed find valid and worthy of exploration.
I apologize for my comment being off-point with regard to Roxane’s posting, but felt it needed to be said.
my motivation was to have a debate, but it seems like everyone here cares more about being courteous than actually discussing anything. i stated an opinion which could springboard a debate and roxane responded so i thought she was going to debate so I responded and then she responded and then i responded and then she accuses me of being dismissive or something so she’s not going to respond and ‘thanks for participating’, i resented the tone of that, whether i believe it or not ive given her something to think about? like that’s the whole purpose of all this, for everyone to discuss and discuss like pawns so that roxane can have things to think about. why dont you return the favor and give ‘me’ something to think about if this is in any sense a two-way discussion and not just everyone bouncing around for roxane’s sake, i took it as a slap in the face so i wrote whatever. I’m still asking in my head, is there actually a problem with race in the indie community? Is this topic valid, I was trying to argue that its not valid, to see if it could be argued back. The idea: ‘writers of color (and not just any one race) who are already out there writing but don’t seem to participate in the indie publishing community’ flies in the face of my position. If there are writers of color that exist but are simply not participating, than roxane’s point may be valid and i would revise my thoughts, but i would need to know that those writers exist to do this. So I am simply asking how do we know they are out there? I’m not trying to be mean or something, I’m just asking it rationally in the course of debate. I thought we were back-and-forthing normally, but I guess not. you all have discourteous meters that are way too sensitive. Lively discussion and debate and argument is healthy and is how things actually get to the surface, it shouldn’t be confined by all this courteousness. All I see in this discussion is bashing of discourteousness and a congratulations for being graceful. it all makes me want to puke a little. Real discussion needs a little discurt. Let’s put the cuss back in discussion.
my statement about writers of color should stop just writing and also walk around was maybe worded badly, but not hyperbolic, rather, and perhaps coldly, rational. what I meant was, the essence of what I understood was, we are lamenting a lack of writers of color participating in the independent literary community, or i at least get that sense, or thats what roxane is so frustrated by, but then she says there are a lot of writers of color who exist, who simply don’t particpate, so what’s the difference between a writer who just writes and a writer who writes but also participates in a community (just writes or also walks around with other writers), as if participating in a community were a mandatory part of being a writer. The way individuals go about finding happiness in the act of writing is variable (and for me a very personal and introspective act, I would never expect anyone to have a desire to communalize the activity) so is it to be lamented that minorities engage communally less, if they exist, when engagement in a community is not what makes a writer, but simply writing does?
anyway, it doesn’t sound like anyone really wanted to debate anything here, just courteously make statements and then other people praise their courteousness. So not a fit for me. I apologize for offending you and roxane and others.
let me re-phrase this…
what you are suggesting then is that more writers of color ought to stop merely writing, but write and also walk around with other writers.
I’ll give you an example which maybe I should have done in the first place. I sent a CFS to an e-mail list/online community for black writers (and this is one of several such communities, to further exemplify that these writers are out there). I’m on this list, have been for years but I don’t participate much for various reasons. I’m mostly there to know, okay, there are people like me even if I don’t know them. There are probably a couple hundred writers on this list. Only one person responded to the CFS and submitted. Now, there are many many factors that could have contributed to this lack of participation. I have no empirical way of approaching this. And we’re a tiny little magazine. I don’t expect writers to come running. Still. I found that lack of response very interesting. As a measure of comparison, a while back Barry Graham casually mentioned PANK on HTML Giant and that DAY we got 40 submissions.
ahhh! finally! and incredibly interesting! thanks!
yeah, this completely refutes my original position, although I agree with what i’m saying in a general sense, it sounds like there is a real existence of black writers who are not engaging in the broader community. i didn’t think there could be a way to know that so many writers of color existed, but your example sounds reasonable and i would probably make a similar conclusion. my only way to continue this argument would have to be along the line of, what’s the difference between a writer who simply writes and a writer who engages in a broader community (or my dumb ‘walking around’ example), and is there something nobler about the latter. Maybe existing in those particular email/online communities is enough for them. Is it okay to be a writer in a vacuum? Is it a self-esteem issue holding them from submitting or is there a valid disinterest? I share the concern now, though.
That is not what I’m suggesting. And I don’t understand how you cannot see how dismissive you’re being. I don’t understand where the hell you’re getting the walking around thing or the not writing thing from. It is lonely being under-represented. I don’t think you can understand that. It is frustrating that underrepresented writers (from all walks of life) don’t seem comfortable submitting to and otherwise participating in the indie publishing community. And I’m not treating people like pawns by saying this discussion has given me something to think about.
i don’t think I’m being dismissive as much as that i’m looking at this all from a distance, or a detached position, which i feel gives me more clarity. Distance is required to discuss anything intelligently… “For no one who wholeheartedly shares in a given sensibility can analyze it; he can only, whatever his intention, exhibit it.” -Susan Sontag. Dismissive implies i’m shrugging the discussion or am disinterested in it and i’m actually very interested in it, otherwise I wouldn’t be discussing it. in a sense, like you say, because i don’t know what it feels like (although i could open a whole other can and say i’ve been in a very small minority as a white male in a group of east indian male and female co-workers for the last ten years) i don’t have much choice to see it this way, so yeah, I’m arguing not with a sense of sympathy for a plight, but strictly the rationale behind it, to see if there is proof of something, to feel it out.
I’m still wording that walking around statement wrong but its a logical deduction of admiting there are writers of color who exist but who do not participate. The thing to lament then is a lack of participation, and not necessarily a lack of the number of existing writers of color, as that’s what you said ‘not even remotely’ when i suggested you were suggesting more people of color ought to be writers. this means, logically, you are fine with the number of writers of color in existence and are now only lamenting their lack of participation, which i am trying to re-word by saying, writers of color should not ‘only’ write, but also participate (’walk around with other writers’ is maybe a dumb metaphor for ‘participating in the literary community’). maybe that’s a better way of saying it, it’s just a re-wording though and not important to the argument other than a new way to clarify what you are saying, by logical deduction of what you’ve stated already.
The pawns remark was offbase and i apologize for that.
‘It is frustrating that underrepresented writers (from all walks of life) don’t seem comfortable submitting to and otherwise participating in the indie publishing community.’ This statement is exactly the thing I’m trying to see if there is any proof of. My sense at first was that writers who aren’t submitting, minority or not, simply didn’t exist. But you are saying they do exist, and so I am back to my original question that you didn’t answer which was ‘how do you know there are writers of color who do not participate?’
Hey Darby, I don’t know if you will come back and read this, but I’ve been thinking about this comment since last night.
In general, I think you often take a critical position toward publishing, the impulse to publish, and also to writing-oriented communities in general, that I think is really important to have in the mix, and challenges me to consider or reconsider my own motivations in a productive way.
But re: race in publishing, I think we are coming from very different places. You’re assuming folks of color aren’t present because they either don’t write, or aren’t interested in writing. I’m imagining there are likely a lot of folks of color who already write and/or who want to write but lack access to opportunities, etc. You’re seeing indie publishing exclusively as an ego game (which, admittedly, it can be), I’m seeing indie publishing both as a richly rewarding community in which to build supportive relationships with other writers, as well as an opportunity structure for folks who for various reasons may be shut out of mainstream publishing. I would be inclined to challenge any opportunity structure, but particularly one that in some way sets itself up as an alternative to the mainstream, to strive to be truly, broadly accessible.
To better own my position, I come out of a social justice activist background where if a certain group of folks isn’t at the table, my first suspicion re: why they’re not there is that the environment, in some systematic or structural way, is somehow not conducive to their participation. I feel beholden to examine whether this is the case, because I believe privilege literally blinds me, makes whole groups of people and their experiences invisible unless I put effort into seeing.
I also don’t really buy into the notion of “cultures” that you seem to be propounding, cultures exist in an essential way, have clear boundaries, are in some way clearly demarcated, that we can definitively say this or that culture practices this or that art form… we can’t. I think we live in a country, world, etc, where there are as many patterns across and between cultures as within them.
@ darby — also, re: your most recent comment, regarding objectivity in debate, which is too far down the string to be able to directly reply…
it has become clear to me now we are operating with muuuuuuuuuuuuuch different, possibly even incompatible rhetorical strategies. I come out of a training in a feminist/queer, etc. theoretical framework wherein objectivity of the kind you describe is understood to be a fiction, and the closest we can come to telling the truth is to actively own our own location, the experiences, etc (and in this framework, systematic privilege is understood as an experience, if an experience of blindness, an experience that generally goes unmarked as a type of experience) that have shaped us, etc, in a conversation, that is, identify out loud the context from which we speak and how that shapes our message.
…I also (and increasingly) am not a big fan of the notion of “debate,” because I think it often sets up, simply “for the sake of debate,” false dichotomies and tensions and such that really don’t need to exist in a conversation. I learn a lot more from a conversation where I and other participants actually listen to and then build upon one another’s views. This doesn’t mean shunning disagreement by any means, but I think this notion of “debate” often manufactures disagreement as though somehow that leads to deeper knowledge of a subject. It doesn’t (I don’t think).
The funny thing is, in, say, a few decades, we’ll all be pretty much one race. I mean that. And I’m fine with it. It’s the way things are going. In fact, it’s the way things *go in nature. So, am I saying, ‘just be patient?’ I guess I am.
Or maybe I’m suggesting we look both forward *and* back. (I just finished reading *Black Like Me.* Maybe that’s obvious.)
I do know what it is to be in the minority, though I’ve enjoyed the advantage of choosing whether to pass (a choice I’ve generally taken).
…For whatever it may be worth.
I’ve just finished reading this whole thread and I think everyone said good things. It’s a valid issue to discuss. I’ve been reading manuscripts for an indie publisher and the editor asked me if I knew any women novelists that would send him something. 95% of the slush is men.
Does HTMLgiant need to say something?
I don’t think we do. We’re an internet literary blog and we’re all unpaid.
We’re weird. We are by no means trying to maintain any kind of status quo. We just like to read.
I am one of 2 women at HTMLgiant. I came from a socially and culturally privilaged background and I went to college and grad school on scholarships, but I sold my eggs twice to buy the time to write. Minus the egg-selling and maybe minus college/grad school, and add a pay-the-bills day job and I think that just about describes all the HTML giant folks, more or less. I could be wrong. Still, I don’t think that gives us cause to “defend ourselves” from anything. I don’t think we’re being attacked in anyway either…. I don’t know. Someone just asked us to chime in so I thought I would do that.
i see most everyone’s points in this thread and sort of find it hard to have an opinion. but when it comes down to it i only really know about my own situation.
why does anyone write? especially these days? i didn’t come from a family of white writers or even artists or whatever, but farmers – people who work outside all day and love the land. i went to public school in rural south texas and for some reason i loved to read, then i wanted to make movies, and then i turned to writing. when it comes down to it, i only write because i want to write.
having seen rural and inner-city schools with my own eyes, i’m aware of the socio-political-economic circumstances affecting women and people of color. but in the end, i feel that much of it comes down to individual drive.
i think people who want to make a difference in the next generation should probably be volunteer tutors. for instance, 826 valencia does some amazing work in many cities across the country. admittedly, there aren’t a lot of organizations of its kind, but that’s the only way anything is going to get done.
Fuck the rich. Feed the poor. Literature forever and for all, forevermore. That’ll be all from P. H. madore.
As far as ‘minorities in education’ one thing I’ve noticed is that yes, women and people other than white are lead into fields that seem suited to them, whereas white privileged men can do whatever they please. The world has always been their oyster.
It’s interesting – and rather distasteful – how some people above have expected Roxane to have answers to the points she raised in her thought-provoking post, especially as she clearly said she was opening up a discussion about the matter. If she did have such answers to how to increase representation of certain groups, then I would seriously wonder why she was wasting her time as the editor of a literary magazine rather than, say, running for the job of President Of The Entire World.
A couple of points that have struck me from the above debate:
(i) Under-representation. Well, maybe I too should feel like an oppressed minority in these comments. Amongst all the mentions of increasing representations of women, of people of (whatever) colour, of different sexual orientation … there was no mention of another minority: disabled people. I’m disabled, both physically and moderately neurologically, and I DEMAND my equal representation in the world of indie-lit. Even though I don’t mention my disability in my bio when submitting work – well, why would I? – I’m convinced that the only reason I don’t get in some esteemed lit-mags is because I’m disabled. See, it’s kind of ridiculous, isn’t it?
[But it's a serious point - a wider one than the indie-lit scene, in fact - that disabled people are the 'forgotten' minority of minorities. And I say that as a disabled person who is avowedly non-political about my disabled status.]
Oh, and I’m also British. Which, in the US-centric world of indie literature, is almost certainly an under-represented group. Just sayin’.
(ii) Flippancy aside, here’s a more serious point. Perhaps one way to increase representation of black writers in the indie-lit scene is for all those predominantly white, predominantly educated, predominantly middle-class men who have opened their ears to music of (primarily) black origin in rap and hip hop – to the point, sadly, where some of them try to be ‘badass’ and instead just end up embarrassing – to now open their minds to writing of black origin. You sought out the music, now go seek out the literature. It’s okay, your beloved copies of Bukowski, Evenson and David Foster Wallace will still be there when you get back, but you might also learn something. And when writing comes in to your literary magazine that is from a black perspective, you might be more receptive to it than you perhaps are now. Just a thought.
(iii) Final thought. There certainly aren’t enough women running literary magazines. Face facts, guys: they’re just better at it, and not half so power-crazed by the editorial responsibility.
“running for the job of President Of The Entire World.” funniest thing I’ve read today. Thanks Vaughan.
they’re just better at it,
What is this supposed to mean? If women are better at running lit mags, why aren’t there more of them? What lit mags run by women make you think this is true? I know some fantastic lit mags run by women, but they have some of the most power-crazed editors around!
We should organize a rap-themed indie lit event and encourage inner city children to attend by putting a woman and a car on the flier.
WTF with all these disturbing responses? What I read in Roxane’s post was someone pointing out something very obvious: There are very few writers of color being represented in indie publishing.
That’s a fact.
It’s also a fact that women are under-represented in many cases too.
Then Roxane briefly explained how that made her feel (frustrated, frightened, and freaked out).
How can that be triggering these defensive and, in some cases, rather unbalanced responses? How is Roxane being a trouble maker? Is she not supposed to speak of it?
Some of these comments reek of a very insidious form of silencing.
yes
this whole post makes me want to destroy shit.
a. if we’re talking about blogs as being the foremost form of self promotion, i’ve run across as many blogs from women writers as i have men. it only feels disparate because the two biggest motherfuckering names in the “indie” scene are blake and tao. so fucking what? oh, shit dudes are doing it up. shitty them.
b. what the fuck is indie lit? there’s a weird tone that implies this sort of white brotherhood that’s hands off to everyone else. doesn’t exist. anybody can be in “indie” lit, whatever the fuck that is. with a modicum of html skills you too can start your own online lit mag. get some paper and a stapler and you can produce a fucking ‘zine. so there aren’t as many asians, blacks, hispanics in the fucking “scene.” and? there aren’t that many asians, hispanics, blacks in writing period. to point the finger at “indie” lit is ridiculous because anyone can join the fucking roast. whether or not people will pay attention is another thing.
c. whoever wrote the “put down the david foster wallace” book is beyond silly. have you fucking read david foster wallace? dude doesn’t write fiction solely for white males, you simp, he writes fiction for fucking human beings. dfw, barthelme, beckett, gary lutz: dudes who all write for fucking humans with ears and brains.
d. it’s funny as fuck how tim and ph have affected these “fuck” html giant tones over here and then post up like, what’s up dudes, how is shit? over there. the toni morrison thing? come the fuck on. have a sense of humor.
e. i’m not white. i’ve come from a hardscrabble life. so fucking what? no interest in writing that “story.” as if asians, blacks, hispanics, down on their luck motherfuckers are obligated to write about only those things. nah, i like to write for humans. with brains and fucking hearts.
here’s a list of names of women in “indie lit” who maintain blogs:
rachel b. glaser
molly gaudry
catherine lacey
kendra grant malone
chelsea martin
brandi wells
amelia gray
jac jemc
kathryn regina
kim chinquee
kristina born
lily hoang
nicolle elizabeth
heather christle
elizabeth ellen
ellen kennedy
jillian clark
amy king
julia cohen
leigh stein
a. minetta gould
that’s just off the top of my fucking dooooooooooooome.
Thanks for your comment.
I only want to address your e. point. No one is suggesting that underrepresented writers should write about those experiences. That isnt’ what this post is about. I write about race maybe 5% of the time. It has very little to do with my creative interests.
I also think there are plenty of black, asian, hispanic, whatever writers.
in regards to e. you didn’t roxane, but someone did.
i mostly wanted you to address point b. as everyone’s acting like indie lit is a big, white frat house. i think an angry commenter at htmlgiant a while back even called it a frat house. really?
“I also think there are plenty of black, asian, hispanic, whatever writers.” in regular ‘ol publishing? i can name the amount of asian writers you’ll find in a bookstore on two hands. ditto for hispanics. maybe an extra hand for black writers. there’s a larger amount of writing available from spanish-speaking writers now that we’re finally getting on the whole translation boat in earnest, but that’s a whole ‘nother issue.
i’m not frustrated with this talk as these are good things being discussed but i’m frustrated at the fact that people are acting like what’s going on in indie publishing is way different than regular publishing and that there’s some sort of insidery bs going on in indie publishing when it’s open to anyone who has the time to throw together some paper or a blog even. also, there’s a weird sort of finger pointing at the people who have used the internet to success, in particular htmlgiant and blake and that’s bullshit.
Okay, re: point b. First of all, I can see how some people look at HTML Giant and think it’s a bit frattish. It is only perspective and perception. You have your own opinions, clearly. There is room for differing viewpoints.
Indie lit, just as mainstream publishing, is very white. I don’t think it needs to be. I don’t think the anyone can join the roast comment is at all fair. Your attitude seems to be I’ve pulled myself up by my bootstraps so everyone else should too. Your experience is not universal just as I wrote in my post, hey, my experience has been pretty good, but I know I’m the exception, not the rule. Maybe you’ve found your place because, as you note in your original comment, you don’t write about race, hard scrabbling, etc. I also think there are writers of color who do write about race/gender/sexuality/etc explicitly and consistently find their work turned away.
I think there are communities of writers of color who choose not to participate or don’t want to participate or don’t even know there are broader opportunities. For example, there’s an organization of South Asian writers, DesiLit, and they have enough members to hold an annual conference, Kriti. They have a magazine. They have local chapters. Now, is this organization anywhere close in size as a group like AWP? No, of course not. But we’re not talking about 4 or 5 writers here. On their website they also have a significant list of South Asian journals. This is just one organization My point is this. Writers of color have these networks. How do we connect to them and bring their voices into indie lit or at least let them know, hey, if you’re interested, consider submitting some work?
Anyway, I don’t have any answers. This isn’t a right or wrong thing. I have my opinion. You have yours.
“I also think there are writers of color who do write about race/gender/sexuality/etc explicitly and consistently find their work turned away.” Absolutely. These are the types of writing I refuse to publish for one simple reason: I don’t care. Only person of your colour having rocks thrown at you? Lived that story, bored of it. There are places for this kind of writing; the entire reading list for every class of my undergrad program at USF consists of nothing else. This is not exaggeration or hyperbole, and I expect that many other college graduates (and the people who drop out because of it) are just as tired of it as I am.
This emphasis on marginalized groups is what led to the founding of The (&) in the first place, so stories of a minority person being whatever-ed will never, ever have a place in my publication.
And it is my publication. I got bored, wanted a magazine, and made one. It took a month and $200. A year later I own a publishing company. This is a game anyone can play.
Minorities who make it to college against stacked odds are under more pressure (internal or external) to succeed financially. Writing and publishing are not the ideal avenues through which to pursue these ends, hence fewer college-educated minorities in a business that doesn’t make much money. My only privilege as a white male is that I don’t have to impress anyone.
“I know I’m the exception, not the rule.” Absolutely. The success is always the exception.
you *might* be thinking of me, and I never said anyone should feel beholden to tell any particular story, and esp not that people of color should be required to write abt race or racism, that would be fucked up and fetishistic.
What I said was I worry if I do tell certain kinds of stories, they may be poorly received, because to even name certain experiences of oppression is seen by many, as your reaction kind of demonstrates, as somehow itself creating the problem, which is bullshit.
Also, the distinction you’re making between stories about being human and stories abt experiences of marginalization is a totally false one, and completely fucked up in its own way. “That story,” as you called it, is just as human as any other story. All our stories, no matter what their topic, are to some degree shaped by difference, by power, and hopefully, by our ability to empathize with a broad range of experiences beyond our own.
I don’t think anybody ever said many of the things you’re accusing us of saying. I certainly never intended to say “indie lit” was necessarily any worse than other industry or community re: race, gender issues, etc, I feel I participated in targeting “indie lit” in this discussion mostly because it is a community (or communities) I’m a part of and care about, and because I think it offers a rewarding opportunity structure I’d like to be accessible to as many folks as possible.
That said, I share some of your concerns abt “indie lit” as a term difficult to define. But I find it interesting that even as you define the term really narrowly as a distribution mechanism anybody can participate in, you still talk about “the scene” as something that exists in an identifiable way… which I think shows that there’s *something* …. a community, a set of communities, a network, a set of interlocking networks … that exists primarily in virtual space but also sometimes in literal space (ie Pilcrow Lit Fest, or the reading series scene in Chicago, which has a lot of connections to the online networks in which I’ve participated) that for lack of a more useful term, and for the sake of an intelligible discussion, we call “indie lit.”
I never said fuck htmlgiant.
do you guys feel like the new yorker chooses their fiction writers based on ethnic criteria? seems like sherman alexie is “the native dude”, then there is the “asian chick”, and like, “the russian” and “the irish guy”, and the “clinton hill black guy”… they published that new girl, the MFA oregon girl, she seemed to be going for like, a “poor mexi-american” thing – joshua ferris is the “career yuppie”… Do their rejection letters say things like, ’sorry, but we already have a ______’
I have thought this before this discussion.
i want to come on record as saying i am a lover of women; black, white, rich poor, educated, uneducated, dirty, clean, htmlgiant affiliated, west baltimore affiliated or otherwise.
i’m always pretty balanced between male and female writers, and its not necessarily by intention or design, it just turns out that way.
as far as race. i don’t know roxy… well i do… but
Following this thread, I’m reminded of two very different articles that ran in the last couple of years. One in the New Yorker, “A Paler Shade of White: How indie rock lost its soul.”
by Sasha Frere-Jones. The other in AdBusters, “Hipster: The Dead End of Western Civilization.” There are some interesting parallels.
-Matt
for everyone’s benefit, here’s the New Yorker article as it originally appeared: http://is.gd/2GktJ
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